Revolution FAQ

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The Stranger
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Revolution FAQ

Post by The Stranger » Wed May 22, 2013 11:43 pm

...well, technically this isn't much of an FAQ considering you guys don't have the chance to ask questions. This is kind of like a preemptive FAQ I suppose?

Q: What is "Revolution"?
A: Revolution is a project started by Dedoombringer and I that is about restarting the Yugioh card game with community driven sets. We hope to be able to balance the metagame better than Konami has, as well as have fun creating and playing with our own cards.

Q: How are you planning on playing using a set of custom cards?
A: We're using an older yugioh program called "YVD" which you can download for free from the Xerocreative Website. The reason we are using this instead of a newer and more popular simulation, like Dueling Network or DevPro, is that it's either impossible or complex and time-consuming to add new cards. YVD has a very simple system that allows you to edit its set file very easily, without any scripting necessary, allowing us to create sets much easier. The cards will be available to download in the form of a set file which you will be able to add as your YVD set.

Q: How will the card submission process go?
A: We will all work on one large set, and each member will be limited in the amount of cards they can submit to that set. You will submit your cards in the current "Set Discussion" thread. You must get your submission approved by at least 2 other members in the set discussion thread before you post it in the submission thread. Being in the set submission thread guarantees that you make it into the current set (barring an extreme circumstance.) Any member may veto a card or group of cards if they can provide adequate reasoning for it, and their creator must respond and sufficiently fix the problem within a week. Once each member has had all their cards approved, the set submission thread will be locked and it will be added to the custom YVD set.

Q: Will this use a custom ban list?
A: Yes, although not in the traditional sense. The program won't stop you because there is no way to change it from the original banlist.
I was thinking we would probably put something about them being limited in their card text, though, so that you aren't looking back and forth at a list to double check that you aren't cheating.

Q: Will you be looking into borrowing completed sets from Custom Card Creations?
A: I won't, but other people most certainly can.
It's pretty likely that they will need to be rebalanced, though.

Q: May I add this card from regular Yugioh to the set?
A: If it is not a competitive card and you aren't adding too many of them you're fine. However, you can't add entire archetypes back in.

Q: Can I throw a pie at Dedoom?

Depends on the flavor.
Apple: Only with ice cream.....vanilla
Cherry: No
Razzleberry: Never
Pumpkin: Yes and must have whipped cream
Banana Cream: Trash can would be a better target

(This is a work in progress, I need to know your questions to expand it.)

Please, ask questions below
Last edited by The Stranger on Thu May 23, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phazed
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by Phazed » Thu May 23, 2013 12:33 am

So we're making our own custom cards?
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by XYZ Dragon Cannon » Thu May 23, 2013 3:20 am

Sounds interesting.

Keen to give XYZ some support.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by Lord dragon » Thu May 23, 2013 4:06 am

I am assuming this will use a custom ban list?

Also, I recall the ban list required internet access. Will there be a way to alter it from what is marked as banned(Officially), perhaps even have it up while offline?

Will you be looking into borrowing completed sets from Custom Card Creations?

Can I throw a pie at Dedoom?
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by XYZ Dragon Cannon » Thu May 23, 2013 4:18 am

Lord dragon wrote:Can I throw a pie at Dedoom?
It will be your Doom...

[spoiler][/spoiler]
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by Flu » Thu May 23, 2013 7:06 am

This won't work, guys.
Even if it does take off (things like this never do) keeping a game with Yugioh's rules balanced AND interesting (the last bit is key) is a lot more difficult than it sounds.
Honestly, you'd do a lot better with a huge player issued ban list with the current card pool, which is plenty big enough, than you would with something like this.
The problem isn't not enough cards to have fun with, it's too many insane cards causing a power creep.
Plus it sounds like you're not even planning to test, just do an eye check. At least Konami has testers.
Though even if you did test, with custom sets, by the time all the testing is done, no one wants to play, since they're warn out.
Especially if it means they have to use something as outdated as YVD.
Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by Lord dragon » Thu May 23, 2013 9:52 am

XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
Lord dragon wrote:Can I throw a pie at Dedoom?
It will be your Doom...

[spoiler][/spoiler]
Pft, I've already slain Dedoom once. It's a simple matter to do so again
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by The Stranger » Thu May 23, 2013 11:24 am

Phazed wrote:So we're making our own custom cards?
Yup.
Lord dragon wrote:I am assuming this will use a custom ban list?
Probably, although not in the traditional sense. The program won't stop you because there is no way to change it from the original banlist.
I was thinking we would probably put something about them being limited in their card text, though, so that you aren't looking back and forth at a list to double check that you aren't cheating.
Lord dragon wrote:Also, I recall the ban list required internet access. Will there be a way to alter it from what is marked as banned(Officially), perhaps even have it up while offline?
It does, but it shouldn't affect us too much considering I'm hoping that the vast majority of cards would be customized. If you want to add a card that is banned but perfectly balanced, like Thousand Eyes Restrict or something, I *think* any change to the name will knock it off the banlist. I'll have to test this and get back to you.
Lord dragon wrote:Will you be looking into borrowing completed sets from Custom Card Creations?
I won't, but other people most certainly can.
It's pretty likely that they will need to be rebalanced, though.
Lord dragon wrote:Can I throw a pie at Dedoom?
Depends on the flavor.
Apple: No
Cherry: No
Razzleberry: Yes
Pumpkin: Yes
Banana Cream: Bonus points!
Flu the Shy wrote:Even if it does take off (things like this never do) keeping a game with Yugioh's rules balanced AND interesting (the last bit is key) is a lot more difficult than it sounds.
I'm laying out some ground rules for how to design cards. One of the key bits is trying to get people to design very broadly to promote creative deck design- the rest of it is just keeping a close eye on the submissions, but I actually have a decent amount of game design knowledge (I'm studying to become one myself) and can probably handle it.
As for the "taking off" part, it shouldn't be too hard to at least get people to try it out (after all, who hasn't wished they could make a few cards every so often?) and we're going to try to organize community events where we can get testing data as well as hopefully keep people coming back to submit more cards.
Flu the Shy wrote: Honestly, you'd do a lot better with a huge player issued ban list with the current card pool, which is plenty big enough, than you would with something like this.
The problem isn't not enough cards to have fun with, it's too many insane cards causing a power creep.
That's way, way more difficult than you think it is.
Everyone has a completely different idea on what cards are broken and what cards aren't. It would inevitably break into a massive argument and at least half of the people involved would leave in the process because they love card X and you guys made it useless. And then, because it was niche to begin with and you just lost a ton of people, you have max 3 people left that will play under it. And then they'll get bored in 10 seconds because it's still just yugioh with tier 3 decks.
Not to mention that balance isn't the biggest issue- counterplay is. There are plenty of decks that are fun to use but it's extremely rare when a deck that's fun to play against stays competitive. And the more you descend into the depths of tier 3 the more of these decks you come across. We can probably agree on instant win conditions for the most part, but Dark World isn't much better! And how do we make Lightsworn fun? Hell, when you get deep into tier 3 there are still OTK's, like chimeratech overdragon, and those aren't fun to go up against. There are too many poorly designed cards to work with, and people are too attached to most of them.
And there are still mechanics that we just plain can't fix without custom cards. How do you fix traditional equip spells via banlist? Union monsters? What about archetypes like VWXYZ or Toon?
Plus, it's way outside of what we're trying to do. It's not just about balance. If yugioh has gotten stale for you better balance will help a bit, but it won't fix the problem because the problem is that you've seen everything in the card game there is to see.
Flu the Shy wrote: Though even if you did test, with custom sets, by the time all the testing is done, no one wants to play, since they're warn out.
Especially if it means they have to use something as outdated as YVD.
The sets will continue to flow, with a new one coming out pretty frequently because of the way the submission process goes.
Set 1 takes submissions -> People check each other's cards because they need to in order to get their cards released -> Set 1 goes into Testing phase, Set 2 takes submissions -> Set 1 comes out of testing after we do a quick tournament based on its cards
>Set 1's discussion thread would remain open if any cards in it become a problem.

>Most of Set 1's archetypes would remain fresh for at least another couple of sets because the limit placed on archetype specific support forces the archetype to span across 2-3 sets to be "finished" in most cases since the limit will be rather low. This also keeps people coming back to design more cards.

>Some of Set 1's cards will always be relevant simply because they are extremely splashable.
Flu the Shy wrote: Especially if it means they have to use something as outdated as YVD.
Admittedly it does suck that we have to use YVD, but it is the only program that allows you that much freedom.
DevPro kind of does, but it also forces you to script out its effect in Lua, which both limits our freedom in design and how fast we can get out a set.
It's a hurdle, but I feel like it's something we can deal with. It's not that bad of a program if you can get past the way it makes you connect, since besides that it's basically dueling network with a different interface.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by Bloody Rose » Thu May 23, 2013 11:38 am

It sounds great Stranger!

Personally I won't be able to play it though becuase unlike most people I have dial up-connection internet (which yes it sux *****, I'm barely able to do YCG at times)
But I wouldn't mind having other people play with cards I created instead. Plus I'd like to see how far my Rosario-Archetype would go in the submission set anyway. :wink:

Did you ever think on doing an example set to show people how a submission would actually go. If it's a good idea, I'll volunteer my Rosarios as an example set, that is if you want to of course.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by The Stranger » Thu May 23, 2013 11:47 am

The Black Rose wrote: Did you ever think on doing an example set to show people how a submission would actually go. If it's a good idea, I'll volunteer my Rosarios as an example set, that is if you want to of course.
This has actually been planned for a while, so I have my own custom cards to add. I'll just submit first so the next person has a reference for theirs. When I get home, I'll put up some more of the rules threads and hopefully begin submissions.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by LewieGee » Thu May 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Flu and I (and a few others) have been around for previous attempts to do this (and back then EVERYONE used YVD and there was a huge amount of support for it)

There were LOTS of issues but it could never last for too long under any incarnation.

Issues included a group of players having too much influence over card design, too few people deciding on which cards are allowed and which are veto'd, cards being used by their creators only and a general lack of management, signposting and updates. We'd definitely need some form of veto system for every card introduced, for example.

I'd LOVE to see this work though and if it's up and running in a few weeks I'd love to help and participate after my exams are over.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by dedoombringer » Thu May 23, 2013 1:22 pm

Guy's we are banning all Konami cards in this. If you have a saboteur monster you can remake him to our system, yes you have to nerf them. As for vetoing I believe no uses should be thrown away, simply fixed so it can used and enjoyed. In this EVERYONE has equal say f from LD to myself. We want a good game not a circle of well I stated this so I have final say.

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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by xXCryptoXx » Thu May 23, 2013 1:51 pm

Sounds cool. I'm in. :wink:
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by The Stranger » Thu May 23, 2013 4:18 pm

LewieGee wrote: Issues included a group of players having too much influence over card design, too few people deciding on which cards are allowed and which are veto'd, cards being used by their creators only and a general lack of management, signposting and updates. We'd definitely need some form of veto system for every card introduced, for example.
As doom said, everyone should have just as much influence as everyone else. Besides Doom and I because we manage stuff so that's kind of inevitable. Obviously we're going to reserve some moderating privileges if people are holding up sets because they aren't responding to someone's veto of their submissions, if they aren't logging in, etc.
And yes, anyone can veto card submissions by giving an adequate reasoning for the veto in the set's discussion thread. This includes cards that have already been approved. If the set is past its testing phase and something comes up, you would post it in the banlist thread.
As far as cards being used only by their creators, I honestly don't know of a solution to that since it's natural to want to use the archetype you just worked to create. I will say that the greater emphasis on splashability will help this somewhat. If you have any more suggestions, don't hesitate to post them.
dedoombringer wrote:Guy's we are banning all Konami cards in this. If you have a saboteur monster you can remake him to our system, yes you have to nerf them. As for vetoing I believe no uses should be thrown away, simply fixed so it can used and enjoyed. In this EVERYONE has equal say f from LD to myself. We want a good game not a circle of well I stated this so I have final say.
You know, I would like to allow people to add in cards that they are attached to, but it seems like it could get out of hand really quickly.
We could just add the really iconic stuff (BEWD, REBD, Dark Magician, etc.) and leave it at that, I suppose.
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Re: Revolution FAQ

Post by dedoombringer » Thu May 23, 2013 5:23 pm

I was in no way saying they can't recreate a card. I mearly said if we dont approve it them it isn't allowed, maybe I did but this is what I meant.

On a side more we will be making a banlist for cards we create aswell because some things we make will be one of cards that are fine with one or two but three would be bad.

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