Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

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MysticJhn
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Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:25 am

While looking up information on a different type of blade I had recently seen,
I came across another type of sword from a similar region; the talwar.

Talwar... I have heard that before.
Oh, right! Beast of Talwar, the Yu-Gi-Oh! card!

So I quickly looked up both the card and the real sword.
What was instantly realized was just how badly the sword is represented on the card.
First, the actual sword, the talwar.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
As you can see, it's a type of sabre, which has that long curve and a single sharpened edge.
Sabres aren't wide, that keeps them lighter and more maneuverable, used for quick cutting and slashing.
There is a point, but they aren't typically for stabbing, although you can use a hooked stab, perhaps to get around a shield.
Now, let's look at what the Beast of Talwar is armed with.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
A VERY different weapon.
First off, he's oddly carrying two different ones.
The one in his right hand has a large brass pommel (the end piece) and with a much smaller guard than the one in his left hand.
The sword in his left hand not only has that extra large guard, but appears to not have a pommel at all.
It's handle is like a knife handle.
Both blades, on the other hand, are pretty identical, although not at all like talwar blades.
They start out straight for a few inches, then jut out for a massive sweeping hook.
The blades themselves are WAY too wide to ever be considered a talwar, and they would be massively heavy.
If he is the master of a talwar like his flavor text describes him, he should know that.
These blades are clearly chopping blades, and would work more like axes than sabres.
It's edge shape is similar to that of the Egyptian khopesh, or maybe the Chinese dao, only cartoonishly exaggerated.
These swords are so heavy, a human wouldn't use them very swiftly.
Luckily for Beast of Talwar, he's a giant demon monster.

So, long story short, does Beast of Talwar actually use a talwar? Not at all.

Anyway, I thought this might be an interesting topic considering all the swords in Yu-Gi-Oh.
Feel free to leave your thoughts on Beast of Talwar's swords, or any other depiction of swords in this game.
Do you think they are good, bad, misrepresented?
Since I have both an interest in swords and an interest in Yu-Gi-Oh, this will be fun for me to debate and discuss.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:12 am

Oh, no, an anime exaggerated something or got the technical details wrong... Whatever shall we do?
Seriously, this is kind of nit picky, Mystic
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:35 pm

I'm not being nit picky, I'm looking for a fun discussion about the differences between fantasy and reality of swords.
I was flipping through a bunch of equip spells after making this thread, and there's a large gamut.
Some weapons are perfectly realistic and reasonable, and some are so ridiculous they'd break your wrist trying to use them
or just break themselves.

Also, it's not hardly nit picky when the example given is so drastically different than it's reality.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:19 pm

MysticJhn wrote:I'm not being nit picky, I'm looking for a fun discussion about the differences between fantasy and reality of swords.
I was flipping through a bunch of equip spells after making this thread, and there's a large gamut.
Some weapons are perfectly realistic and reasonable, and some are so ridiculous they'd break your wrist trying to use them
or just break themselves.

Also, it's not hardly nit picky when the example given is so drastically different than it's reality.
But dude, it's anime.
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:57 pm

As if anime, manga, and games of all sort haven't been debated to death.
People have heated arguments about fictional powers and abilities all the time, and you find it weird
I'd like to have a decent discussion or debate about the swords as compared to their real world counterparts?
Something that actually exists in the real world and has true life facts about it as opposed to magic and "god" strength.

You guys will actually be angry with one another between choices of individual cards in a full deck
to the point that I have to break it up, delete posts, and even lock threads to stop the hate.
However you're finding it odd I'd like to discuss the swords the characters are depicted having.

We have a thread in off topic to debate fictional fights between fictional beings, and nobody questioned that.
This topic about objects that exist in reality and could actually be forged, you find preposterous?
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:28 pm

Since we're taking about a fictional universe infamous for poorly relating to the real world and it's ability to relate to the real world accurately, yeah.
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by LewieGee » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:39 pm

Wallaceman105 wrote:
MysticJhn wrote:I'm not being nit picky, I'm looking for a fun discussion about the differences between fantasy and reality of swords.
I was flipping through a bunch of equip spells after making this thread, and there's a large gamut.
Some weapons are perfectly realistic and reasonable, and some are so ridiculous they'd break your wrist trying to use them
or just break themselves.

Also, it's not hardly nit picky when the example given is so drastically different than it's reality.
But dude, it's anime.
This is needlessly reductionist. Everything is 'just X', everything is reducible to some label or some medium. Unless you're talking about the value in it - not caring because it's unimportant because it's anime? Well, yeah, sure, but we're on a yugioh forum where that medium is the common denominator here and in any case ridiculous scrutiny is poured into the haphazard story arcs emerging in the card art of newer sets, etc, so why can't card arts?

With respect I don't even think the topic is interesting because of anime but because of the disparity between reality and fiction, no? I find that very interesting...
:oops:

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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:45 pm

If the only point you have is "it's anime", then you shouldn't even be interested in the card game.
Don't forget, you're playing the fictional card game from an anime and manga universe.
It didn't exist prior to the manga.
It's not much different than you writing rules for using Kamehamehas in your back yard.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:01 pm

Alright, to get this thread back on track, I'm going to post again! :mrgreen:

While flipping through different Equip Spell Cards, I ran into the Noble Arms, which are all swords.
Since they run the gamut between ridiculous and perfectly realistic, I'd like to post about them.
We'll go in aphabetical order.

Arfeudutyr
(I can't even spell it without looking, never mind pronounce it.)
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This one is nice to start with, not just because of it's name, but it's design.
It's not preposterous, but it's not entirely efficient either.
The blade, while not entirely visible, seems like a pretty standard, realistic long sword.
Double edged, I would assume normal pointed end since it's impaled in stone, not too wide or thick, so not too heavy.
All in all, a good blade. Plus it's glowing, so that's surely good. :D
The handle seems to be that of a hand and a half sword, or bastard sword (the legit name for hand and a half swords).
It too is somewhat straightforward, although about 3/4 the way down the handle it has a wide bit.
Since it's very dark and mostly the same color, it's hard to tell if it's part of the pommel or the grip.
As part of the grip, it would be somewhat uncomfortable, but not really bad.
The pommel is a bit large, which isn't entirely balanced with the blade, but again, not too bad.
The guard is where most of it's problems arrise.
Now, it's still a fantasy weapon, and as such it's reasonable to look fancy.
The upward turning spikes are nice, they would actually be usefull in trapping an opponent's weapon during a parry,
allowing you to take control, twisting their weapon off to the side for an opening or lock their weapon to pull out a dagger for a good stab.
The downward turning spikes, not so useful.
It's the problem of a lot of fantasy weapons, all these extra sharp bits and spikes that are more dangerous to the user than the opponent.
Yes, they protect the user's hand, but at the same time, it puts you in jeopardy of stabbing yourself during a fight.
Stabbing your own arm is never a good thing.
Overall, though, it's quite a usable blade.

Caliburn
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Again, another sword that's not so bad for a fantasy weapon.
It's an extra wide blade, although it would be rather heavy.
That wouldn't be so much of a problem, as it's clearly a two handed sword considering the handle
length, but there's one problem there.
That handle, while long, is incredibly thin for a heavy sword.
It makes me question how far the tang goes.
For those that don't know, the tang is the extention of the blade that imbeds into the handle.
That handle is so thin, it would have to be only a partial tang, which isn't so good for a big, heavy blade,
or a really thin tang, which, during an impact of such a big blade, might snap.
I would be afraid that handle wouldn't last long at all after a few strong attacks into a dragon hide.
The guard on it is rather nice.
It's not overly decorated, keeping the weight down, and the angles lead any strike you block off to the side, giving you an opening.
If you don't break it, it would really hurt to be hit with, even if it goes blunt.

Excaliburn
(I picked the Italian version of the card because the English versions were bad; too dark of scans or very small)
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
For a sword directly named for the legendary sword of King Arthur, it's somewhat disappointing.
Given the sword in the stone reference, I'd rather it's name was swapped with Caliburn.
The blade... there is nothing to like about this blade from a realistic point of view.
For one, it is MASSIVE. Since the handle appears to be a 1 handed sword, or hand and a half at best, it would snap your wrist.
It would be too heavy to swing as is, especially if you wanted to use a shield.
The split blade part at the top is strange and useless.
You might think it would be good for catching an opponent's blade, but if you think about how swords are swung,
it would most likely never happen.
The other problem with the split is that it lacks a solid spine, so against most realistic swords, or especially a shield,
those split ends would quickly bend, or worse, break. You'd wind up with a still heavy sword that's now useless
as anything other than being a fancy, heavy metal bar.
Compared to the overly decorative and horrible blade, however, the hilt is somewhat plain and usefully realistic.
Sure, it's slightly decorated on the guard, but overall it's strictly functional.
The handle seems to be a nice, simple wood grip and the pommel at the end is a plain brass fitting.
It just would be so poorly balanced considering the massive size of the blade and the relatively average sized handle, you couldn't weild it.
Not that you'd want to even if you could.

Gallatin
(Not to be confused with gellatin, an awful sword material. :mrgreen: )
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Of all the swords in the bunch, this is easily the most realistic and probably the best made.
A standard blade, an almost entirely plain guard, a useful handle with nice leather wrapped (I think) grip, and a brass pommel end for balance.
It's designed like a one handed sword should be, no complaints at all.
Pull this sword if you find yourself magically transported into Yu-Gi-Oh, you'll like it.

Noble Arms of Destiny
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
This one is unique amonst the the rest because it's the only one paired with a shield, as you'd like to go into combat with.
The sword has a wide, double-edged blade.
It may be a bit heavy, but I'm not entirely sure that's a problem since the entire sword seems to be
constructed from a single piece of steel without any additions or other materials.
The guard may be a seperate piece of metal fastened to the rest, I can't tell, but considering it's a flat bar, I'd suspect so.
The grip, while made of polished steel, probably wouldn't be such a problem slipping out of the hand because of the texture.
It might not be the most comfortable thing to hold, but it'll do the job.
The one thing I question, and perhaps it's just a problem with the artist failing to notice something, but the sword seems twisted.
If you look at the part inserted into the rock, it's facing the user.
However, if you follow the blade up to the hilt, the guard and handle are facing a totally different direction.
Usually, with swords of this kind, the guard and the flat side of the blade are parallel, but this appears to be perpendicular.
Again, maybe it's just the way it's drawn and the guard isn't really facing the way it is, a trick of the eye.
As for the shield, well, it's a shield.
It might be a bit thick, but it's impossible to say since it's facing the viewer.
I would question it being made entirely of metal instead of wood with a metal rim and face plate, but I'm not that knowledgable on shields.
That being said, it IS a NOBLE shield, and it would certainly be very expensive.
Now that I look at the shield again, though, how did it get stuck in that stone as well?
I can understand the fantasy of a sword being inserted into a stone being sharp enough
to pierce it (not in reality, but I'll let that slide), but a shield?
A shield doesn't have any sharp edges (sometimes spikes on the front, but not this one), and even if you
told me it was because of magic, I'd find it hard to believe.
Was the stone formed AROUND the base of the sword and shield? Who knows.

Anyway, that's my view on the realism and usefulness of the Noble Arms.
I hope someone enjoyed my viewpoints and it made people think a bit or, if I'm lucky, learn something.
If you'd like to comment on or debate about some of the points I've made, by all means, I'm open to intelligent discussion.
YES, I used the word intelligent on a subject about fantasy weapons.
Just because something is fantasy doesn't mean it's wrong for things to make sense, and it is loosly based on our reality.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:17 am

Ok, to be entirely honest, I was just messing with you because I didn't think there was anything entirely interesting to say on the subject.
I sit whole-heartedly corrected and apologetic
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:39 pm

If there's any specific card depicting a sword in some capacity that
someone would like to have me discuss, feel free to request it.
Doesn't matter what kind of card it is, as long as it's a sword.

Again, don't hold back in replying about anything I've covered.
If you think I'm mistaken, wrong, or missed something about
a weapon already discussed, or just want to add your own opinion
on the subject, or review a blade I haven't gotten to yet, go for it.
This is an open forum on the subject, and input from others is welcome.
I could probably go forever until I run out of depicted swords in the game,
but I'd rather not post on my own.

Now for another card review, and I'm going back to an old monster.

Flame Swordsman
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
A nice card to review since we just got a second angle on him and his weapon,
although I find the original artwork better.
The new artwork looks too much like he's posing for the camera as opposed to an action shot
since he's holding the sword one handed (even though it's clearly a two handed sword) and facing
it so that the viewer sees it perfectly flat. Feels entirely unnatural.
However, I'm not here to talk about Flame Swordsman's inability to take a good photo.
No, this is strictly about the flame sword.
The hilt isn't really bad.
The guard, while needlessly spiked, isn't too bad. You're not too likely to hurt yourself with it, and it would be effective for blocking.
The handle has nothing fancy on it to make it hard to hold, and appears to be the same solid piece of metal as the guard.
At the very least, they both appear to be made of the same material if they weren't forged from a single piece.
The only problem I see is the total lack of a pommel, and that'll be more of a problem when you consider the size and weight of the blade.
Now the blade, and the fact it's a catastrophe is why I started with the handle first to get it out of the way.
*sigh*
Let's begin with the standard fantasy problem of being obnoxiously HUGE.
It's not even really that long for a sword, but it's pure width and thickness more than makes up for it.
We can guess from the artwork it's as wide or wider than his fist closed around the handle at the thinnest.
That is, what, 6-7 inches for a man of his size? And it only gets wider from there.
Compared to his head in the second artwork, it's wider at it's widest point than his head.
That is stupid wide for a sword.
To compile this problem is just how thick it is.
It's nearly as thick as the guard, which I'm assuming is 2-3 inches. To be fair, let's say it's only an inch and a half thick.
I own 11 swords in reality of various sizes, and the largest, thickest one in my collection, which uses a 2 foot handle and is a massive chopping
blade is only a quarter of an inch thick. That is 0.63 cm for those outside the US. And that sucker is heavy.
Swords are not thick, but Flame Swordsman's weapon is a giant slab of steel... maybe.
I say maybe, as we'll get to that shortly.
Another problem is how it connects to the hilt.
It's clearly a different piece of metal sitting on that much thinner block part of the guard.
That block it's on seems to be part of the guard, but it's almost half the size of the sword's base.
The tang of the blade has to be inserted through there, but it would be really small (relative to the blade anyway).
Far too small to support such a huge blade's connection to the handle.
If you hold that sword horizontally ever, the raw weight of that steel (?) slab would snap it if Flame Swordsman didn't drop it.
That sword being sharpened at all is almost pointless.
You'd knock an enemy's head clean off with a blunt sword if you could actually manage to swing such a huge pile of metal.
Now to why I'm questioning if this blade is even steel.
It's on fire (duh).
Anyone out there know how you forge steel into shaped weapons of any sort?
That's right, kids. Fire. Red hot fire, heat, things that turn the metal a screaming red and orange hot.
A similar color to the sword itself!
Now I've seen art of the sword not on fire, and yes, it's orange anyway, which is another reason to say it's possibly not steel.
Might it be painted? Yes. It's also possible to use heat to color steel, if you've ever heard "blued steel", it's done that way.
But that is outside the point.
Metal on fire, and constantly on fire, weakens it.
Hot metal is structurally weaker than, say, hardened steel, which is what swords are.
At the massive size and weight of this sword, you really don't want to weaken the metal by keeping it on fire during battle.
You might tell me it's some kind of magic fire that isn't hot, but I don't think so. Fire is always hot.
That sword, to keep from damaging itself, would need two magic spells on it.
One to actually generate the flame, and another flame protection spell to keep itself from hurting itself.
Maybe a third magic spell, on the blade itself or it's user, to make it light enough to pick up.
Not only pick up, but clearly hold in one hand. *shakes head no for you doing that*
Maybe a 4th spell so it doesn't snap almost immediately when you pick it up and gravity greets it.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:13 pm

I always figured it was just some random magic metal, considering that any real metal would melt when you make an entire tornado at a fire with it.
Since I was a bit of a naysayer when you posted this, I'll make it up by giving you your first request. Could you go over some of the Six Samurai weapons?
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:33 pm

Wallaceman105 wrote:I always figured it was just some random magic metal, considering that any real metal would melt when you make an entire tornado at a fire with it.
Since I was a bit of a naysayer when you posted this, I'll make it up by giving you your first request. Could you go over some of the Six Samurai weapons?
I will cover them later (I'm about to go out now), but will answer you quickly.
Even a random, magical metal would need to be forged to be shaped somehow.
Unless you suppose this slab of magic metal he found himself with was already
sword shaped and sharpened, he had to form it somehow.
The only real way to do that is to heat it up to a point it's softened, and hammer it.
If the metal was so magical it literally cannot get hot, then he couldn't rightly make a sword out of it.
I'm not sure there's enough hours in a year to sit there at a grinding wheel to literally grind away
the excess metal to form the size, shape, and sharpness of a sword that size.
If the sword is that big, just imagine how large and heavy a raw block of magic metal would need to be if he did it that way.
And without the heat treatment, even after the years of shaping without heat, it would still be a soft version
of that metal since it lacked a heat treatment and would dull or break quickly.

A normal, real sword needs to be heated, then quenched in oil or water to make the steel hardened.
A hardened steel blade doesn't break as easily and holds it's edge a lot better without chipping.
If you don't heat treat a blade, or improperly, it's soft steel, which is not good.
Sometimes the one side of a blade might be left softer, only heat treating the edge side, but you can't do that
with a double edged sword. One side would be useless for hitting people, and that's a sword's only purpose.

So, even with fire proof magic metal, you take eons grinding it down from an even larger metal chunk, and it's soft and worthless as a weapon.
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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by Wallaceman105 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:10 pm

I kind of meant I thought it was magical metal that was magically forged, but this analysis stuff is pretty neat
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:
DFB3636 wrote:
Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
Image

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Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! & Swords

Post by MysticJhn » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:07 pm

Wallaceman105 wrote:I kind of meant I thought it was magical metal that was magically forged, but this analysis stuff is pretty neat
lol, There's really no accounting for magic.
My Six Samurai weapon review coming up, although after quickly looking at the original 6 and the Legendary ones, there's not much to be said.
They mostly use fairly standard, traditional weapons with almost no fantasy enhancements outside of magical glows.
Not much I can actually say about magical glows. :P
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