TCG List Change

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Wallaceman105
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by Wallaceman105 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:28 pm

Gouki wrote:
Wallaceman105 wrote:Chicken Game didn't need a ban, a limit would have been fine.
Upstart should have been hit to 2 at most.
both of these statements are wrong. chicken game should have never been printed and the same probably goes for upstart goblin. the cards break konami's rule of a 40 card main deck minimum.


to elaborate, chicken game gave you a free draw while lower your life points. this has been shown to help a plethora of decks, namely ftk decks. a card like life equalizer has an even easier activation condition with cards like chicken game and upstart goblin in play. (life equalizer should still be banned as well)
I know all that.
Still disagree.
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Zanrith wrote:Make the extra deck great again, too many pendulums are entering our decks!
Just build a wall of floodgates.
And make the OCG pay for it!
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by einstein » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:32 pm

Yep, limited in 2003-2004, and semi'd in 2005-2006
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by Gouki » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:58 pm

Wallaceman105 wrote:
Gouki wrote:
Wallaceman105 wrote:Chicken Game didn't need a ban, a limit would have been fine.
Upstart should have been hit to 2 at most.
both of these statements are wrong. chicken game should have never been printed and the same probably goes for upstart goblin. the cards break konami's rule of a 40 card main deck minimum.


to elaborate, chicken game gave you a free draw while lower your life points. this has been shown to help a plethora of decks, namely ftk decks. a card like life equalizer has an even easier activation condition with cards like chicken game and upstart goblin in play. (life equalizer should still be banned as well)
I know all that.
Still disagree.
kk continue to be disillusioned with your irrational mindset as to what the game should be.
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by XYZ Dragon Cannon » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:53 am

Chicken Game and Upstart were run in degenerate solitaire decks as well, don't forget.

This list is alright, I guess.
Face Off was [bleep] and had to go.
Thank fudge Wavering is gone.
Wisdom Eye was unnecessary, but the card was broken.
Norden is busted as fudge and needed a limit.
Allure is interesting and probably won't do much.

Solemn Strike needed to go to one.
Dark Law is a little [bleep] and that engine needed to be hit in some way. Probably limit Mask Change Second so it can't be splashed in every damn dark deck.
They still needed to hit Kozmo and Monarchs better, but at least, from first signs, it isn't going to be a pendulum dominated era.

Looks like we're moving into another BA format bois.
Where's Book of Moon and Compuls? qq
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by XYZ Dragon Cannon » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:54 am

Gouki wrote:
Wallaceman105 wrote:
Gouki wrote:
both of these statements are wrong. chicken game should have never been printed and the same probably goes for upstart goblin. the cards break konami's rule of a 40 card main deck minimum.


to elaborate, chicken game gave you a free draw while lower your life points. this has been shown to help a plethora of decks, namely ftk decks. a card like life equalizer has an even easier activation condition with cards like chicken game and upstart goblin in play. (life equalizer should still be banned as well)
I know all that.
Still disagree.
kk continue to be disillusioned with your irrational mindset as to what the game should be.
Im really starting to like you :)
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by Gouki » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:13 pm

:D :D :D :D
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by sgtc1 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:47 pm

LewieGee wrote:
sgtc1 wrote:LOL THEY HIT UPSTART. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. 37 card deck too strong? 3000 LP handicap? Nah that's much too OP. AND CHICKEN GAME LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

hah, I think Upstart was on the list years ago too. Can't remember if it went to 1, but definitely was at 2 for a while.
Upstart isnt even good. It's not bad but not good or great... Don't give me this "helps consistency bull****", all it does is give u a 37 card deck. Oooh I'm so scared becuz ur deck is 0.075% more consistent than mine. (Literally 3/40). Like c'mon. And it can be argued that the the 1000 life points per UG doesn't matter becuz the game is "so fast now", it can still affect the game (whether u lose or get saved by it's extra lps and then let u win next turn or later), and I've seen that happen. This is ridiculous imo.
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by einstein » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:50 pm

sgtc1 wrote:Upstart isnt even good
Gouki wrote:kk continue to be disillusioned with your irrational mindset
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by Rowwdy Yisb » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:48 pm

wtf i run 50 card decks and im at 700 rating on dn anyway why is it even good giving ur opponent lp lets them play graverobber not worth. srsly just play soul taker
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by XYZ Dragon Cannon » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:34 am

sgtc1 wrote:
LewieGee wrote:
sgtc1 wrote:LOL THEY HIT UPSTART. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. 37 card deck too strong? 3000 LP handicap? Nah that's much too OP. AND CHICKEN GAME LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

hah, I think Upstart was on the list years ago too. Can't remember if it went to 1, but definitely was at 2 for a while.
Upstart isnt even good. It's not bad but not good or great... Don't give me this "helps consistency bull****", all it does is give u a 37 card deck. Oooh I'm so scared becuz ur deck is 0.075% more consistent than mine. (Literally 3/40). Like c'mon. And it can be argued that the the 1000 life points per UG doesn't matter becuz the game is "so fast now", it can still affect the game (whether u lose or get saved by it's extra lps and then let u win next turn or later), and I've seen that happen. This is ridiculous imo.
Please stop with these uninformed neckbeard comments.
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by arkain07 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:22 am

So my the list hit the top deck.

They love tapped Kozmo's.

Face Off and Wavering Eyes got hit.

They hit all generic Pendulum cards.

Debris is back but card never needed to be limited in the first place. Probably safe at 3.

So lets re-hit reasoning cus we just put it back at 3 two formats ago.

Final thoughts, They should have hit E-Tele to one but don't think they are done with Kozmo's just yet. All basic pendulum splash ins are banned/limited. Monarchs don't need to get hit. Deck clogs and that should be enough said. Norden to one will Hurt the mermail OTK meh not really. You will still run 3 instant fusion and guess you could splash in Thousand Eyes or some other generic level 3-4 water fusion? Sure why not. BA's and Phantom Knight decks will get a push. Looks like a control format in the near future. So nothing big impact worthy outside of the tearing apart of the Draco engine. I guess they hit reasoning due to Kozmo's? But E-Tele to 2 still leaves that deck open and it did kinda hit 1 monarch build I guess. Dark Magicians get more support and allowing you to use quick play spells from hand so adding them at the end phase may work there I guess? Idk. Don't see it but could work. They do need to take out other generic support cards. Terraforming I feel is another card that should have been hit as well as other generic support like mask change II. Cards like this are bad for the game and if I can splash it somewhere I most likely will.
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by sgtc1 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:52 am

Gouki wrote:kk continue to be disillusioned with your irrational mindset
XYZ Dragon Cannon wrote:Please stop with these uninformed neckbeard comments.

You guys don't get the point. FTK decks as well decks that limit player interaction shouldn't even be part of the game imo. I'm disregarding those. In conventional duels it's not as bad. When you talk about upstart and chicken game in decks that rely heavily on consistency, then yes it's significant. That should *GO WITHOUT SAYING*. It's obvious that upstart would help rather degenerate decks. Upstart isnt the problem people. It's whatever decks their being splashed in. It's not funny or good to have solitaire playstyles in YGO imo.

Gouki already brought this up. Some of these cards shouldn't even have been printed. Upstart back in the day was insignificant tbh (again more conventional, and slower gamestates), but nowadays yes, they help too many decks that need to otk/ftk with ridiculous win conditions or effect(s).
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by JhonnyCees » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:31 pm

sgtc1 wrote:
LewieGee wrote:
sgtc1 wrote:LOL THEY HIT UPSTART. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. 37 card deck too strong? 3000 LP handicap? Nah that's much too OP. AND CHICKEN GAME LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

hah, I think Upstart was on the list years ago too. Can't remember if it went to 1, but definitely was at 2 for a while.
Upstart isnt even good. It's not bad but not good or great... Don't give me this "helps consistency bull****", all it does is give u a 37 card deck. Oooh I'm so scared becuz ur deck is 0.075% more consistent than mine. (Literally 3/40).
I would say nice try but it wasn't even. You dont just say "well there are 3 cards less out of 40, so it must be 3/40 % better". Not how probability works.

I won't get into it too much unless more conversation comes about from this, but I will give an example showing how much upstart actually helps.

Consider the following 2 situations:

Situation 1: You went second, and have made it through 8 turns and searched some cards out of your deck, such that you have 18 cards left in your deck. You still have not drawn your Blue-Eyes White Dragon, of which you run only in your deck. Then the probability of you drawing BEWD on your next turn is then 1/18. If you still dont draw it, you will then have a 1/17 chance. Third turn? 1/16. This corresponds to 5.55%, 5.88%, and 6.25%, respectively.

Situation 2: Same as situation 1, but you are intelligent and have been running 3 upstart in your deck, and have drawn and played all three of them at this point, such that even though everything else is the same as situation 1, you now have only 15 cards left in your deck. So now, over the next 3 turns, your chances of drawing BEWD is 1/15, 1/14, and 1/13, which correspond to 6.67%, 7.14%, and 7.69% respectively.

Summary (Turn means turn counting from this situation being the starting point):

Turn :sEquip: Chance of drawing BEWD, no Upstarts :sEquip: Chance of drawing BEWD, 3 upstarts :sEquip: %Difference
1 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.55% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 6.67% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.12%

2 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.88% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 7.14% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.26%

3 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 6.25% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 7.69% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.44%

10 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 11.11% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 16.67% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.55%

I included turn 10 (corresponding to 9 and 6 cards left in the deck, respectively) just for fun, as it is unlikely that a duel would really make it down to 5 cards left in the deck these days, but as the number of cards in the deck decreases, the size of this effect becomes more apparent.

You might look at this and say, "well, so what, 1% difference isn't really going to matter". It is true that this is small, but what were you expecting, a 20% increase? That would be so blatenly unfair I could almost see Konami making a card that does that. The critical thing though, is that that 1% improved consistency comes at absolutely no cost. It is free (and in many cases beneficial, if using chicken race, magical explosion, or anything with spell counters). If someone offered you to be 1% more athletic, or 1% smarter or 1% richer, absolutely for free, would you really say no because 1% is not that much?

Don't try and say the 1000 lp gain makes it not be for free, if you do you dont understand game mechanics, are unaware of cards like chicken race and bad reaction to smooci, and are in general a meltboy.

Why does this forum not support tables?

TL;DR:

Upstart matters as long as you actually know how to math, you uninformed neckbeard.
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by sgtc1 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:50 pm

[spoiler]
JhonnyCees wrote:
sgtc1 wrote:
LewieGee wrote:

hah, I think Upstart was on the list years ago too. Can't remember if it went to 1, but definitely was at 2 for a while.
Upstart isnt even good. It's not bad but not good or great... Don't give me this "helps consistency bull****", all it does is give u a 37 card deck. Oooh I'm so scared becuz ur deck is 0.075% more consistent than mine. (Literally 3/40).
I would say nice try but it wasn't even. You dont just say "well there are 3 cards less out of 40, so it must be 3/40 % better". Not how probability works.

I won't get into it too much unless more conversation comes about from this, but I will give an example showing how much upstart actually helps.

Consider the following 2 situations:

Situation 1: You went second, and have made it through 8 turns and searched some cards out of your deck, such that you have 18 cards left in your deck. You still have not drawn your Blue-Eyes White Dragon, of which you run only in your deck. Then the probability of you drawing BEWD on your next turn is then 1/18. If you still dont draw it, you will then have a 1/17 chance. Third turn? 1/16. This corresponds to 5.55%, 5.88%, and 6.25%, respectively.

Situation 2: Same as situation 1, but you are intelligent and have been running 3 upstart in your deck, and have drawn and played all three of them at this point, such that even though everything else is the same as situation 1, you now have only 15 cards left in your deck. So now, over the next 3 turns, your chances of drawing BEWD is 1/15, 1/14, and 1/13, which correspond to 6.67%, 7.14%, and 7.69% respectively.

Summary (Turn means turn counting from this situation being the starting point):

Turn :sEquip: Chance of drawing BEWD, no Upstarts :sEquip: Chance of drawing BEWD, 3 upstarts :sEquip: %Difference
1 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.55% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 6.67% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.12%

2 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.88% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 7.14% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.26%

3 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 6.25% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 7.69% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 1.44%

10 :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 11.11% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 16.67% :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: :sRitual: 5.55%

I included turn 10 (corresponding to 9 and 6 cards left in the deck, respectively) just for fun, as it is unlikely that a duel would really make it down to 5 cards left in the deck these days, but as the number of cards in the deck decreases, the size of this effect becomes more apparent.

You might look at this and say, "well, so what, 1% difference isn't really going to matter". It is true that this is small, but what were you expecting, a 20% increase? That would be so blatenly unfair I could almost see Konami making a card that does that. The critical thing though, is that that 1% improved consistency comes at absolutely no cost. It is free (and in many cases beneficial, if using chicken race, magical explosion, or anything with spell counters). If someone offered you to be 1% more athletic, or 1% smarter or 1% richer, absolutely for free, would you really say no because 1% is not that much?

Don't try and say the 1000 lp gain makes it not be for free, if you do you dont understand game mechanics, are unaware of cards like chicken race and bad reaction to smooci, and are in general a meltboy.

Why does this forum not support tables?

TL;DR:

Upstart matters as long as you actually know how to math, you uninformed neckbeard.
[/spoiler]
The small percentage increases are another way of saying my deck has 3 less cards. Upstart just thins ur deck down to 37. 37 compared to 40 would have those exact same percentage changes... Like uhm? And btw the 0.075 joke was a hyperbole. Which I guess everyone somehow didnt get. It's obviously too small to be the actual consistency change. -_-

Also yes the little 1%'s from the upstart arent that significant. That's what I've been trying to say. In the long run YES. It ADDS UP. But that's not the point, my original argument was oriented towards the fact that these small increases aren't banworthy (or limited, semi'd, etc.) To me in conventional duels they just aren't a big enough of a thing. They're only "so useful". The only good argument to make is that it shaves off potential turns or unwanted draws and sorta give you a "head start" on draws. If you're following.. Anyway I get this. But I just don't think it's huge enough. But idk what's not much to me might be more to you. >_>
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Re: TCG List Change

Post by arkain07 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:27 pm

There are plenty of other ways to thin decks. Aka Lonefire and Toon Table. Things your deck by 3 cards which all you need to see here is one and you get the search. These cards just say Draw ! card. Where as cards like Pot of Greed ect allows for more draws and usage. How on earth putting Allure of Darkness at 2 was a good Idea beats me. The fact you draw the cards then banish gives you options. Plenty of other options to thin your deck out to add consistency to a deck. This also allows you if you know percentage allows you to do this.

I have 35 cards left in deck after my start hand. If 2 are upstart I now have 33 left and if I see a third or more draw power/search cards I thin my deck by even more. So its all about how many times you see these cards. This is why search engines often get hit right away on the list. Chicken games got banned cus you can search it for one. So this adds consistency. You can reuse it with another card and still get draws and deck thinning out of these cards. So you take one thing they will find another way to do so just like I pointed out. Toon table x 3 search a dark toon and use Allure you get draws. This thins your deck by 5 cards giving you 30 cards left in deck. You will find ways to thin your deck with searches and more.
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